Toner Family, 1875

When I was at the NYPL a few weeks ago, I found the 1875 NYS Census of the Toner family. 

This is important, because it's the first time that I've actually been certain I was seeing young Julia (my great-great-grandmother) as a member of her family. Though I've seen plenty of records connecting my Julia Toner to this Toner family, I had yet to find her listed as a member of this family on a census. Given that she's 8 years old here in 1875, I also find it likely that she is, in fact, the same person as the 2-year-old Judith listed on the 1870 census. The Toner family has a strange relationship with the names Judith and Julia, each of which often pops up where it isn't expected, and disappears from places where it should be. They are sometimes used interchangeably, and sometimes flat-out incorrectly. Here, the family is listed as
Thomas Loughlin, 34, caulker
Eliza Loughlin, 18

Richard Toner, 49, painter
Julia Toner, 46
Mary A. Toner,  21
Louisa Toner, 17
John Toner, 15
Julia Toner, 8

The apparent errors here are Julia Toner, 46, and John Toner, 15. The wife/mother of this family was Mary, not Julia - but I've ceased to be surprised when one of the Toners is incorrectly called Julia. Pretending to be named Julia must have been their favorite hobby - unless this name is a clue to something bigger that I'm just looking right past? The son who would have been 15 in 1875 - indeed, the only son who had survived to 1875 - was named William.

Elizabeth Toner married Thomas Loughlin in 1874. Both here and in 1892, the Loughlins are living with Elizabeth's parent(s). In 1875, they live with both Toners and all of Elizabeth's siblings; in 1892, the Loughlins and their children living with Elizabeth's mother, Mary Tonner.

The Toners have a reliable presence in census records as well as newspapers from 1860 to about 1875, and then everything goes wacky. I can't find anyone but the Loughlins in the 1880 census. In the 1892 NYS Census, the Loughlins are back, this time with Elizabeth's mother Mary Toner living with them - but no mention of any of her other children. I can find Mary Ann Toner married to Thomas Murphy and living with their children, but that's all. Richard is presumably dead. Julia is gone until 1900, and her soon-to-be-husband is single when he's enumerated with his relatives - they didn't marry until the next year. Louisa never again appears in census records that I've seen, but doesn't die until 1918, at which point her death certificate indicated that she had been living uninterrupted in New York City for her entire life. William doesn't appear to show up in 1880 or 1892, but was also apparently a life-long resident of NYC when he died in 1899. Where did they all go?

Mary Toner's Death Certificate - 26 Aug 1899

Mary Toner's death certificate! Woo hoo! . . . or maybe not. To be frank, while I'm inclined to believe that this is Mary Cullen Toner's death certificate, I'm not positive, and there are several pieces of information that make me wonder whether maybe Mary Cullen Toner had another relative, likely an inlaw, Mary Somethingelse Toner.

This Mary Toner died 26 Aug 1899, at 270 Van Brunt Street, which was where Mary Cullen Toner's daughter Julia lived with her husband Patrick Mulvaney and their children (3 or 4 at this point: James, Grace, and Mae, certainly, and Willie may have been born this month). In 1892, Mary Cullen Toner was living with her other daughter, Elizabeth Toner Loughlin, so it's reasonable to think that she spent time living with each of her daughters after her husband Richard died. The undertaker was "Mrs. T. Murphy," who is likely Mary Cullen Toner's other daughter, Mary Toner Murphy. This Mary Toner died of a cerebral hemorrhage and pulmonary edema.

Now here's where things get tricky. According to her death certificate, she was widowed, 63 years old, Irish-born, had been in the US 35 years, and was the daughter of parents named John and Mary. Mary Cullen Toner should be widowed and Irish-born. She should have been well older than 63, though it's difficult to say just how old. Her age was given as 40 in the 1860 census, 40 in the 1870 census, and 69 in the 1892 census. If any one of those is correct, 63 is far too young. The fact that her age was never given consistently, though, means this isn't really a strike against her. 35 years in the U.S. is clearly wrong for Mary Cullen Toner, although maybe by "only" 15 years or so. The Toners' oldest known child, Julia, was born in the US around 1851, so her mother couldn't possibly not have immigrated until 1864 - not to mention that Mary was enumerated on the 1860 census.

Further, there's the matter of of the baptismal dates that were looked up for me. If you'll recall, someone looked up some names in the parish registers of St. Mary's Church in Maynooth, Co. Kildare for me, and gave me this information:

(Baptisms)
24 Sept 1818 Mary, (of) Patrick Cullen and Mary Carr godparents John Carney and Judith Scully.

3 Nov 1821 Richard (of) William Toner and Margareth Walsh godparents Charles Kearns and Mary Cushion.

(Marriage)
15 Jan 1850 Richard Toner to Mary Cullen witnesses Edward Hackett and Mary Boland

I was already skeptical because Richard's mother's name didn't match what I knew. Her name was either Judith or Julia, but it certainly wasn't Margareth. And now Mary's father's name doesn't match, either. Does that mean that the baptismal information refers to the wrong people, that the death certificate doesn't belong to Mary Cullen Toner, or that the information on the death certificate is wrong? If the baptismal information is correct, Mary Cullen Toner should have been way older than 63 in 1899; she would have been in her early 80s.

Which piece of conflicting information should I doubt? All of them, probably. Can they be reconciled? It's possible that, say, Richard's mother and Mary's father both died soon after their children were born, and their parents remarried. Might Judith have been the step-mother who raised Richard, and John been the step-father who raised Mary? I contacted the church in Maynooth to try to verify the information I was given and to see if there were records of such later marriages, but got no response.

Not sure what my next step is going to be.

Death of Kathryn Murphy Keane, 16 May 1937

From the Tuesday 18 May 1937 issue of the Brooklyn Eagle, via Fulton History:Kathryn Murphy Keane was - I'm fairly certain - the daughter of Mary Ann Toner and Thomas Murphy. Her siblings were Annie Murphy Dowd (at whose house Kathryn died), Thomas Murphy (who appears to have died prior to 1937, since he's not listed as a survivor here), and John Murphy. She married William R. Keane, and they had 1 daughter, Margaret Keane, who, according to Betty and John, became an Ursuline nun and died of cancer in the 1990s.

What's going on with the Murphys?

I've started looking into the Murphy family recently. I'd always more or less avoided them, since I had scant information on their names and relationships and, well, because their name was Murphy. I'm don't have those mad skillz yet. But earlier this week (yes, when I still had finals to write - don't judge!), I thought I'd do some searching.

Two Murphy boys - John and Thomas - lived with the Mulvaneys in 1905 and 1910, listed as their nephews. Betty and John told me that they were the children of one of Julia's sisters, but they didn't know which sister.

Some time ago, I found a Brooklyn Eagle notice of the "Verona Coterie," which a Mary Toner and a Thomas Murphy attended together in 1877:

VERONA COTERIE

Last evening the Verona Coterie held another

of their select reunions at the residence of

their President, Mr. William Gregg, corner of Van

Brunt and Verona streets. It was in every respect

an enjoyable affair, and, reflected 'great

credit upon the management. Among those present,

were Mr. John Curran, Mr. Thomas Sheridan

Mr. Michael Coffey, Mr. Thomas Converry and Miss

Mary Hayes, Mr. James Bond and .Miss Mary Idston,

Mr. James Ennls and Miss Bella Sweeney, Mr.

John McAuliffe and Miss Elizabeth Curran, Mr.

Thomas Murphy and Miss Mary Toner, Mr. Frank

Woods and Miss Jenny Briordy, Mr. James Downey

and wife. Captain Harris and Wife and Mr. James

Roche and lady. The officers of the Association

are; President, Mr. William Gregg; Vice President,

Mr. John Devoy; Recording Secretary, Mr.. James

Bona.; Treasurer, Mr. Thomas Converry.

Combined with the fact that I already knew the destinies of all of Julia's other sisters (except for the perhaps apocryphal Judith), I became increasingly convinced of the possibility that Thomas and John's mother was Julia's sister Mary Ann and that their father was Thomas Murphy.

Good, uncommon, easy to find names, those. Mary and Thomas Murphy! Argh.

But I thought I'd try. First I looked for a Mary (Ann) and Thomas Murphy in the 1892 NYS Census. I'd looked briefly in 1900 before, with no luck, but I hadn't tried systematically searching. In 1892, the most promising result was the one I posted last week. The family was Thomas and Mary A. Murphy, and their children Kate, Any, and John.

I took that information and looked for the family again in the 1900 Census. Looking for Mary (Ann) and Thomas Murphy had no results, until I started looking for their kids, putting in only one of their parents names at a time. I finally got a hit when looking for Thomas Murphy, with mother Mary. It seemed Thomas Murphy Sr. had died in the previous 8 years.

The family is Mary, a widow, aged 45, born in March of 1855 (Mary Ann Toner was actually born 3 March 1852); Catherine, 19, born in April of 1881; Annie, 13, born in September 1887; John, 11, born in April 1889; and, this time, Thomas, 6, born in March of 1894. Mary has given birth to either 4 or 5 other children who are no longer living; the column "mother of how many children" has either an 8 or a 9 in it. No one in the family appears to be employed. This is incorrect, as we'll soon see. The family lives at 306 Van Brunt St.

Yes, that's right. Just a block from the Mulvaneys at 270 Van Brunt! (I'm having a difficult time embedding a Google map, but if you try this link, you'll see just how close the two really are.)

After finding the address of the Mulvaneys, I searched through the Brooklyn Eagle at the Fulton History website. I was hoping to find a death notice for Thomas, and maybe one for Mary as well, but I found something else entirely. Well, not quite something else entirely. I still found death notices, but they belonged to other people! Thomas Murphy at 306 Van Brunt Street was an undertaker! (Some of those news items about deaths and funerals were quite interesting. I'd like to feature some of them here, soon, but the specifics of those cases aren't particularly relevant to finding out about the Murphys.)

What I did next was to search the NYTimes archive for "306 Van Brunt" and I found Thomas Murphy, in the 1 June 1898 death notices. His death had been reported 31 May (that's my birthday!) and he'd died 28 May.

Then I Googled for "306 Van Brunt" and "undertaker," hoping I'd find some information about the business or about Thomas Murphy. After all, part of the reason I'd thought it credible that these Murphys were our Murphys was that in the original 1892 NYS Census, Thomas Murphy had been listed as a coachman, and Mary Ann's brother William had been a "stableman" when he died and had, some years earlier, been involved in an accident while driving a coach that was "the property of Mr. Murphy of South Brooklyn." I was hoping to find a reference to the undertaker "who used to be a coachman" or some such, though I knew it was unlikely.

What I found was not at all what I'd expected. The 1899 edition of Trow's Business Directory for Brooklyn lists an undertaker at 306 Van Brunt Street, sure, but it's not Thomas. Thomas has been dead for a year. Mary is the undertaker.

How cool is that? I did a little googling, and found that, while female undertakers weren't common in the 19th century, it was one of few of the professions that didn't actively exclude women.

And wait a sec. . .

Hadn't I already written off the possibility of female undertakers somewhere?

On William Toner's death certificate, my first impulse had been that the undertaker listed as "Mrs. Thomas Murphy," but I had written that off as being improbable. It appears I was wrong.

And when I went back to check, I realized that the "Mrs. Thomas Murphy" who was the undertaker when he died gave an address of 306 Van Brunt Street! In addition, I found reference to the idea that, at least early on, female undertakers were only allowed to handle the bodies of women and children. I don't know whether that was still applicable around the turn of the century, but the fact is that William Toner wasn't a woman or a child. He was a grown man. How could Mrs. Thomas Murphy be in charge of the body . . . unless they were related? I've been assuming all along that they were, but I think this is further evidence.

Sometime between this 1900 US Census and the 1905 NYS Census, the Murphy boys went to live with their Aunt Julia and Uncle Patrick Mulvaney. I don't know whether Mary died - I haven't found any evidence that she did, but I also haven't looked very hard. Mary Murphys are a dime a dozen, and several dozen of them died between 1900 and 1905, and many more dozen of them appeared in the Eagle in that time period. It's possible, of course, that the Murphys went to live with the Mulvaneys for some reason other than the death of their mother.

I still have to find out what happened to Mary Ann, and hopefully what happened to the Murphy children as they grew up. But this is a pretty good start, with my only bone of contention being the pesky change from coachman to undertaker during the mid-1890s.

Family of Mary Ann and Thomas Murphy in the 1892 NYS Census

In the second column of this 1892 NYS Census, you'll find a Murphy family that I suspect -might- be the family of Mary Ann Toner, sister of Julia Toner Mulvaney and potentially the mother of John and Thomas Murphy, who were partially raised by the Mulvaneys. The head of the family is listed as Thomas Murphy, 37, Irish-born but a US citizen, and a coachman. If you recall, a young Mary Ann Toner attended a party with a Thomas Murphy in 1877. His wife, Mary A(nn), is 34, and US-born. According to this she was born around 1858; Mary Ann Toner was born around 1852. Their children are Kate, age 10; Any, age 5; and John, age 3.

John is exactly the right age for the John Murphy who was raised by the Mulvaneys.

According to Betty and John, the Murphy brothers had two older sisters, one of them named Annie. I'm hoping that Any is Annie and not Amy, or else this is probably the wrong family. Amy, while it sounds to my ear like a very modern name, was actually the 120th most popular name in America in 1887, the year this "Any" would have been born. (The supposed modernity of Amy comes from its extreme popularity in the 1970s, when it was the #2 most popular name for 4 years running.) Annie, of course, was at #12 in 1887, and Ann and Anne were also very popular, at 124 and 121, respectively - the real popularity of the name is disguised by the fact that the two variant spellings were almost equally popular, making the name that sounds like "Ann" twice as popular as the rankings would suggest. Though the ranking of Amy is similar to those of both Ann and Anne, there were 251 babies named Amy in 1887, and 488 named either Ann or Anne, which is more in line with the numbers one would expect of a name ranked in the 70s in that year. Add in Anna at #2 (4,227 births) and Annie at #12 (1,844 births) means Ann- names were much more popular than Amy, and more likely to be encountered when looking at this sort of demographic data.* But "Any" could still be Amy, and, as much as I want this to be the right family, I do think that "Any" is more likely to be a "typo" for Amy than for Annie.

So on the name count, I'm not committed. Is "Any" Murphy our Annie Murphy Dowd? Dunno.

Something I do find particularly interesting, and potentially indicative of this being the right family, is Thomas Murphy's occupation. He's listed as being a coachman. As you'll recall, William Toner's death certificate listed him as a stableman, and in 1889, a news item referred to a William Toner driving a coach that was "the property of Mr. Murphy, of South Brooklyn." More than anything, the occupation - and the right birthdate for John - makes me think that these are our Murphys, that Mary A. is Mary Ann Toner Murphy, and that William Toner was working for his brother-in-law when he was involved in that accident.

*Source for name data: The Social Security Administration: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/babynames/

We interrupt this broadcast. . .

I've been concentrating on the O'Haras for a few days, because I have lots of records stored up that I haven't ever uploaded. However, I noticed today that the 1865 New York State Census was up on FamilySearch's Pilot Site. I've been traveling and moving and unpacking all day, but I've tried to page through (since the records are unindexed) in every free moment. Finally, at 9 at night, success! I've found the Toners! They're on the right-hand page of that image, the only family listed on the top part.

A few interesting things, bulleted because I'm short on time this evening:

• They live in a brick house worth $2,000. (If I knew more general history of the time, I'd perhaps be able to shed some light on what that said about their general material well-being.)
• Both Julia and Mary Ann, at ages 15 and 13, are employed, "sewing."
• Mary has given birth to 8 children. Only 7 are listed, and James Thomas is one of them. That means someone else died young, someone we haven't yet discovered.
  
• James Thomas is listed as James T., which I assume means he was actually called James Thomas. That's kind of cute.
  
• James Thomas was 1 and a half years old when the census was taken, which means he was about 2 1/2 when he died in August of 1866.
  
• Infuriatingly, this census lists an older woman, named Julia Toner, age listed as 60 (um, she was 63 five years ago!), who is listed as the mother of the head of household. I THOUGHT RICHARD'S MOTHER WAS JUDITH! Why, when Richard died, was she listed in her death notice as the mother of Richard Toner? I am increasingly convinced that, for some reason, the Toners used the names Judith and Julia interchangeably. Argh argh argh argh argh. Who was Richard's mother?
• Anyway, this Julia, supposedly Richard's mother, is listed as widowed, the mother of 4 children. So it seems possible that Richard had 3 siblings.
  
• Richard has been naturalized. Early naturalization records rarely had much information (later ones can be treasure troves), but there's another record I'd like to see one day.
  

That's what I've got. I'm excited, but quite frustrated by this constant Judith-Julia conflation.

Thomas Murphy and Mary Toner

Again, from the "Old Fulton Postcards" newspaper website, here's some information that I think sheds light on one more of Julia Toner Mulvaney's sisters. We know one married a man named Murphy, because their sons were living with the Mulvaneys in 1910. We didn't know which sister that was, though, Mary or Judith (though I do sometimes think that Judith is actually Julia - but that's neither here nor there). I've just come across, though, this news item about young people attending the Verona Coterie, in 1877, when Mary Toner would have been about 25 years old. She appears to have attended this dance accompanied by Thomas Murphy. Aw, courtship.

VERONA COTERIE
Last evening the Verona Coterie held another
of their select reunions at the residence of
their President, Mr. William Gregg, corner of Van
Brunt and Verona streets. It was in every respect
an enjoyable affair, and, reflected 'great
credit upon the management. Among those present,
were Mr. John Curran, Mr. Thomas Sheridan
Mr. Michael Coffey, Mr. Thomas Converry and Miss
Mary Hayes, Mr. James Bond and .Miss Mary Idston,
Mr. James Ennls and Miss Bella Sweeney, Mr.
John McAuliffe and Miss Elizabeth Curran, Mr.
Thomas Murphy and Miss Mary Toner, Mr. Frank
Woods and Miss Jenny Briordy, Mr. James Downey
and wife. Captain Harris and Wife and Mr. James
Roche and lady. The officers of the Association
are; President, Mr. William Gregg; Vice President,
Mr. John Devoy; Recording Secretary, Mr.. James
Bona.; Treasurer, Mr. Thomas Converry.

[emphasis mine]

It now looks like the fortunes of the Toner children were as follows:
Julia (1) - died of cholera at 16
Mary Ann - married Thomas Murphy, had 4 children, died before they were all grown
Samuel - died suddenly at age 18
Elizabeth - married Thomas Loughlin, had several children, was widowed, married Thomas Renehan, took in Willie Mulvaney for an unspecified period of time, died in 1925
Louisa - married Mr. Deegan, died in 1918
William - was a troublesome teen, cut school at least once, may have died around the turn of the century (that's the next death certificate on my list)
Judith - unknown
James Thomas - died of cholera in 1866, at age 6 or younger
Julia (2) - married Patrick Mulvaney, had numerous children, raised 5 to adulthood, died in 1938

Brooklyn Churches! Excitement!

Some time ago, I posted about having come across baptismal records of the three eldest Toner children, Julia, Mary Ann, and Samuel, at St. Paul's Church in Brooklyn. I didn't know why only those three were baptized there, but it appears I've just figured it out!

Combining this Brooklyn Catholic blog I just found, which gives locations and founding dates for churches in Brooklyn with my knowledge of the addresses the Toners lived at and the very cool "My Maps" feature at Google Maps, I've created this map that shows family addresses in blue (will give addresses, family, and time period if you click) and church locations in green (will give parish name, address, and founding date if you click), I've realized that the Toners, it would seem, attended St. Paul's, and baptized their first three children there, until two much closer churches - St. Mary Star of the Sea in 1853 and Visitation in 1854 (1853 is the date given for Samuel's baptism, the latest Toner baptism at St. Paul's). I'll have to look a little closer to double check whether there are any other Catholic churches in or near Red Hook, but for now it looks like my first order of business is contact St. Mary's and Visitation and finding out how far back their parish records go (please let them go all the way back to 1853/4!), and either request a search or make a plan to go do some research myself (that part might not happen until this summer, of course). Finding baptismal records for the middle Toner kids there, and then, especially, for the younger Julia, our Julia, would be crucial. It's torturous to know that the family I've traced back the farthest is the one that hasn't quite necessarily 100% been linked to us, although I'm 98% sure.

My assumption will be that the Toner's attended Visitation (we know the Mulvaneys did), but since we know that the Madigans attended St. Mary's, both are worth the effort.

Anyway, check out the map, as I'll be updating it soon with additional churches and addresses. For my own reference, it will include the O'Haras and Quinns as well as the Mulcahys, Mulvaneys, Madigans, and Toners. I've just recently e-mailed St. Augustine's near Baltic St. to see if they can find any of the sacramental records of the O'Hara family, but if they're not there, I'll have to map and check all of the other local churches.

October 10, 1938

So, I had these great, organized, well-planned out ideas to post things in reverse chronological order, from most recent to most ancient, so that things would eventually be laid out in an order that makes perfect chronological sense when viewed from the most recent to the oldest post.

Nevermind all that.

A few weeks ago, I sent away to the NY Municipal Archives for the death certificates of Julia and Patrick Mulvaney, Nana's parents. Julia's arrived this afternoon. I don't have a scanner, but I'm transcribing it for my own records, so I'll post it here, as well. It contains lots of information I didn't know, though it may not be new to all of you.

[Bureau of Records - Department of Health - Borough of Brooklyn]

Certificate of Death
[1938 October 12 PM 12:27]

Certificate No. 19700
1. Place of Death: Borough of Brooklyn 324 82 St., Private residence
2. Full name: Julia Mulvaney
3. Residence (usual place of abode): 324 82 St., Brooklyn

Personal and Statistical Particulars
4. Sex: Female
5. Color or Race: White
6. (Marital Status): Widowed
7. Date of birth: [blank]
8. Age of decedent: 68 yrs.
9. Occupation
a. trade: Housewife
b. industry: Own home
c. date decedent last worked at this occupation: June, 1936
d. total time spent in occupation: 45 years
10. Birthplace: USA
11. How long in US (if of foreign birth): [blank]
12. How long resident in City of New York: [blank]
Parents of Deceased
13. Name of father of decedent: Richard Toner
14. Birthplace of father: Ireland
15. Maiden name of mother of decedent: Mary Cullen
16. Birthplace of mother: Ireland

17. Informant: Thos. Mulvaney, son

Medical Certificate of Death
18. Date of death: October 10, 1938
19. I hereby certify that I attended the deceased from Aug. 1936 to October 10, 1938. I last saw her alive on Oct. 10, 1938: death is stated to have occurred on the date stated above, at 3:45 PM.
The principal cause of death and related causes of importance were as follows:
chronic hypertensive cardio-vascular disease (duration 2 1/2 years)
chronic thyrotoxicosis (duration 2 1/2 years)

Other contributory causes of importance:
cerebral embolism (duration 10 days)

Name of operation: [blank]
Date: [blank]
What test confirmed diagnosis? [blank]
Was there an autopsy? No

Signature: Charles Stern, MD
Address: 454 43 St., Bklyn

21. Place of Burial: Holy Cross Cemetary
Date of Burial: October 13th, 1938
22. Undertaker: Joseph Redmond, John Redmond
Address: 476 73 St.

Funeral Director's Certificate

I hereby certify that I have been employed, without any solicitation on my part or that of any other person, as undertaker to dispose of the remains of Julia Mulvaney by Thomas Mulvaney of 324 82 St., Bklyn, who is the son and the nearest surviving relative or next of kin of the deceased. This statement is made to obtain a permit for the burial or cremation of the remains of the deceased.
Signature: Joseph Redmond
Business address: 476 73rd St.
Permit No.: 219
If another undertaker in your employ is to take personal charge of the work in the care, preparation, or other disposal of such dead human body, give his name: John J. Redmond
State License No.: 192

Physician's Supplementary Certification
(Required in Connection with Telephone Application for Removal Permit)

If death has not been contributed to or caused by homicide, suicide, accident, acute or chronic poisoning, abortion, puerperal sepsis, or any suspicion of of those conditions, and the funeral director desires to obtain removal permission by telephone, the physician will execute the following certification:--
I hereby certify that the death of Julia Mulvaney who died on Oct. 10, 1938, at 324 82 St., Bklyn has not been contributed to or caused by any of the conditions mentioned in the above list.
Personal signature of physician: Charles Stern
Address: 454 43 St., Bklyn


I didn't try to use block quotes again, as last time I did that was the formatting nightmare two posts below, but hopefully it's easy enough to tell where the certificate begins and ends. It gets awfully clinical and distasteful towards the end, doesn't it?

Keeping in mind that death certificates tend to be the least reliable of vital records, because they are filled out by someone other than the person they are about (in other words, it's much less likely than a child or grandchild will accurately name the parents of the deceased on a death certificate, than, say, that the parents of a newborn will accurately name themselves on a birth certificate), what I learned from this (I'm deciding to trust Thomas Mulvaney) were most specifically Julia's parents' names, Richard Toner and Mary Cullen.

If Julia was 68 when she died in 1938, her birth was around 1870, which is in keeping with the age she gives on all the census records I've found her on (I never have come across the 1930 census for the family). However, when I search census records for Richard Toner in NY, with wife Mary and daughter Julia, the only records I come up with that seem even possible are these, from 1860 and 1870:



These two families are clearly the same, but their Julia is a full 19 years older than ours should be. She may even have already left home by the 1870 census, right around when our Julia should be just being born. I've heard a story or two about a Mulvaney woman lying about her age, but I would think that 19 years would be stretching it.

First, I want to ask whether anyone already knows the names of Julia's parents and siblings, and can let me know whether all this conjecture is misplaced.

Second, I'm going to let my imagination run wild for a minute. There's an older woman living in the home during both census years (she ages more than 10 years in the interim, though, so there's no guarantee that she's the same person). Her name is listed as Julia Toner in 1860, and I would assume that she's Richard Toner's mother. In this census, young Julia is listed, 9 years old. The older woman is listed as Judith Toner in 1870, and a toddler is listed, baby Judith. Assuming for a moment that she is the same woman, it seems possible that her name IS Julia, and that the census taker misheard Julia for Judith that day - in which case it's possible, I suppose, that little 2-year-old Judith could actually be Julia, too - and she'd be about the right age to be our Julia.

That of course, leaves the problem of having 2 daughters named Julia in the same family (and we'd have to hope that Occam's Razor doesn't apply to genealogy) - it could be explained any number of ways (Julia 1 died and they named the baby after her; Julia 1 got into some trouble, named the baby after herself, and left it with her parents; etc.) all of which are possible, and none of which are particularly likely.

It could also be, of course, that there were multiple Richard and Mary Toners in NY at the time, and that more than one of them had a daughter named Julia, and that our Toner family was skipped by the census that year. Or that I just haven't found them. Or that one of you will post a comment to the effect of "Thomas Mulvaney must have been mistaken. Julia's parents were named Bob and Sue," and I'll feel a little silly. Does anyone have any facts, documents, stories, opinions, or wild conjecture similar to mine to add to the story?